tv FOX Report FOX News August 21, 2011 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT
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i want you to listen to the gunfire and look at some of the video coming into fox news channel all day and now into the night. from islamic regime at war. a place where our american pilots have been involved in missions in the skies as you know, well over five months now, and tonight, maybe, maybe, rebels moving in on the longest dictator in the arab world. some of what we've been monitoring now, look and listen. >> and run like run, and run, they're running and so we are doing very good job now. >> hey, hey! >>. >> he sawed they are running like rats as gaddafi would call him. that's what that gentleman said in the truck there, and now, our fox producer we have a been keeping in contact with all day and talked with on fox report last night, the situation is fluid in libya
and joins us now by phone. a very different night now. and things have changed quickly. what is the situation? >> well, harris, very tense moments right now. and ten minutes ago there was a massive volley of gunfire and the need yeah are gathered, the international press to hunker down now. immediately after that volley of gunfire, all of the government people are all armed, and melted away. and it's gotten worse because they've left behind young men with rifles and they're wearing the green sash and very educated, very angry and the press are coming up, banners on the balcony and the press to indicate exactly who we are and a level with many moments and these men are reacting angrily to it and they're ranting and raving right now. and saying to gaddafi, who basically the head of one of the major brigades and throughout the day, and here at the hotel ten minutes ago,
here for our protection and right now we don't feel very protected and a number of from the hotel and here outside the windows and sound of mortars, gunfire and even rpg's, right now it's a dangerous transition between the government who is leaving and perhaps the levels arriving and not more than three kilometers from the square, and in favor of gaddafi and very close to being inside. the intense sniper fire, he so it's tense here right now, harris. >> harris: i am reading on the associated press wires, we've been reading that gaddafi's regime is clearly crumbling. have there been people in the streets saying what's going on. and what about in tripoli and libya right now. is there any sense of any organization among these people? >> harris, down the streets right now, i have to be quiet
right now as i said, heavily armed and we just have to try and stay calm and wait for this to blow over and certainly, things are really sort of giving way here now that the rebels have the upper hands and in the districts in the city and they're taking over and there are small pockets of people who are absolutely fanatical and loyal to gaddafi and they're right now very dangerous, and intense battle going on inside the hotel and we've hunkered down and hoping that, you know, rebels come in and recognize us for who we are and sort of come in basically and we can basically start reporting from the streets as he suggests. >> all right. from what you are explaining now, i see a shift in what's happening here. and your voice is low now, as you take cover and we certainly want you to be safe. and do you have anybody with you who will be able to communicate to them? because you're concerned now as the rebels take the streets of tripoli they'll be able to
recognize that you're a journalist in fact and not taking a side in any of this. and what precautions are you taking at this point? >> well, as i said, i have been in my room with colleague and chefs from the hotel and worried about this transition of when the government troops flee and the rebels come in and saying, in the corridors-- we're staying in our rooms and not coming out until it's safe to do so and stay on the corridors and communicate with the the press and tv and it's very agitated and they're tearing them down and basically, hoping for the best and that certainly what we're going right now. >> harris: the situation has changed just so much in the last 15 to 20 minutes. we're going to ask for you to stand by and allow you to be quiet as that happens. we want to go to sky news, our sister network, they are streaming live right now, and
we're going to try to capture their pictures you saw, again, this is live. we've got a correspondent there through our sister network, and alex crawford. every now and then you'll be able to see her face or even hear her voice, i want to just be quiet for a second to see if we can hear anything. >> that's why alex and john and having such trouble. and also, with me chris doyle, impressive surely to see the rebels. >> harris: several networks work as a family here, sky news with their correspondent on the ground there, and alex crawford and a shot the anchor person there with sky news in london. but as we watch this, she has been part of our eyes and ears for coverage of all of this. i want to go back to mcclosky, our fox producer there in tripoli and i want to be sensitive to your needs right now because you have described the situation that's unfolded in the just the last few
minutes is that have put you and our team of journalists in danger and what exactly is happening right now in tripoli. >> you know, seen on the streets a week ago, and a focal point, or one of the focal points of gaddafi and hundreds of people every night during ramadan firing guns in the air and that's all just changed in an eye blink today. now, we see rebel forces everywhere in the city and rebel supporters waving the rebel flag and it's incredible. and i mean, these reports coming in from every station and saying that gaddafi be captured and another son of muammar gaddafi has given himself in and it's quickly and we're told by one of the young men that gaddafi, who is the, you know, the commander of the brigade and we are he' hunkered down right now. >> all right. i don't mean to cut in, but we can hear alex crawford in the
streets of tripoli right now and we want to go live and hear our coverage from sky news, let's listen in. >> there are bullets whipping everywhere, i have to tell you. and as people fire into the air in celebration. there are a number of destroyed cars on the perimeter the square and it looks as though there has been some sign of a battle with the rebels and they're very much in control of the square right now. >>
>>. [gunshot [gunshots] >> our viewers what we're watching and listening to right now. this is a country that has been at war for months now as they wanted to throw out their dictator, muammar gaddafi, the longest serving leader in the arab world. and tonight, word that at least one of his sons, those people loyal to him, some defecting, but one son taken into custody somehow as the rebels have moved into the city, and now, it would seem made their way to the center of tripoli, a strong hold as you might imagine by the dictator, it's his capital and now word here we're not quite sure where gaddafi is and what we've been listening to is via our sister network, sky news as their correspondent has said that bullets are flying.
it would seem in celebration, she said at this point, but not always quite so sure. and our fox producer there, part of our own team of journalists who's there covering this, he joins us now by phone and this is an explosive situation, hard to tell who is doing what there. and you hear one correspondent describing it as bullets flying in celebration and fear. >> and not surprising and my guest is that alex crawford, to the rebels square and the pinnacle of the city and everyone ganers and a massive place and where they unfurl the huge banners of gaddafi and sounds like that's where our sister station tried to reach. now, they will go back from the early-- like the sniper fire, so it's not surprising that, you know, the rebels are streaming in there and still getting some resistance, just like we are here, and we can still hear the gun battles going on outside and an hour ago we can hear the loud speakers on the
mosques nearby with the chant of allah akbar and means it's basically falling in rebel hands and then the sniper fire began on the hotel and everything else was trying to get the snipers and as i say, those guys disappear and we are he' basically alone here now, and where with these young men who are heavily armed and still fanatically loyal to muammar gaddafi and trying to play it by ear and see how things develop and as i say, we are he' expecting to see rebels coming through the door any moment now because we are he' told they're not far away and only be be a matter of moments, minutes, perhaps, within the hour before we see them, and they're 30 or 35 odd journalists are reporting in tripoli. >> harris: i tell you, we've got one scene going on you're holed up inside waiting for the rebels to see what will happen to you, once they realize people in their midst who are caught in the middle of this, the journalists and
then alex crawford with the sister network sky news, outside, describing a scene of just mayhem and bullets flying whether they're in celebration or not, a very dangerous situation. i want to listen in again, because you can hear her voice narrating. let's listen. it's very difficult to hear you and i know you can hear me. >> tripoli, the capital city in libya. >> we'll keep an eye on these-- >> six hours ahead of us here in new york and it's the middle of the night over there and you can see as the rebels have moved in, anti-government rebels have moved in and our correspondent-- producer, rather, telling us that gaddafi's people are not backing down, so now you've got a situation where the anti-government rebels are in the city and gaddafi's loyalists are there as well. and it's an explosive situation. i want to go to ambassador
john bolton to get some perspective on this. he's going to join us by phone. do we have the ambassador? >> as we bring him on, we want to get some perspective, because just to remind you, this is a place where our troops have been engaged. >> hell he low. >> with n.a.t.o. and silence in the skies above have been engaged via air strikes and hitting targets for five months now. >> a hello. >> a lot of controversy over there, a situation that here in america, our leaders are watching, the president being briefed hour by hour this weekend, we're told. and we're going to take a quick break. step away. when we come back, continuing live coverage of the news that's breaking in libya. stay close. . >> we were completely wrong which tells us, i think, about t the-- fight back fast with tums. calcium rich tums goes to work in seconds. nothing works faster. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums for red lobster we can find.
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the capital city of that country, tripoli. a word now that the leader, their dictator, the longest running dictator in the arab world is on the run, but we cannot confirm where he might be. some reports have him out of the country and some reports have him hunkering down and then you've got the situation where people who were loyal to him are still in the city. we've got a producer team and a team of journal itses there, reportedly inside the hotel waiting to see if the rebels will reach them and decide that it's okay that they stay. hoping to communicate they're not taking sides in this whole thing, they're there to cover the story and then you have journalists outside. our alex crawford with the sister network sky news, giving us blow by blow when she can of the bullets that are flying and the scene that you see there is the sports screen of all that's happening live on the left side of your screen, an unfortunately situation breaking open in the north african country, produce how much oil, most of it going to europe and important on a
global economy anyway and to give us more perspective because we've had pilots engaged through n.a.t.o. for months now. >> and we're joined by former ambassador to the united nations, john boulton, mr. boulton, thank you for joining us, you're going to be here by phone with us. >> glad to be here. >> give me first your impressions, are we seeing something that's breaking wide open, a game changer or is this par for the course. >> well, i think unless something dramatic happens, this is the end. gaddafi regime, where else and what happens next for him, obviously, no one knows. but i think the question now in the next couple of days is whether bitter enders from his regime continue resistance and how bad that turns out to be, and whether the rebel forces can keep the discipline of their troops and try and restore law and order and he we don't have a, a scene of score settling and retribution for decades of gaddafi rule.
so i think this is all very much up in the air at the moment. >> yeah, and i phrased it par for the course because we've seen so much of this in this country and throughout the northeast and africa as people push in revolution style engagements against their governments and all of a sudden there's no organization and they don't really go anywhere. >> no, i think it's safe to say that gaddafi's government has broken apart. if i were, leave the military aside here, if i were part of gaddafi's police forces, i'm not sure i would be putting my uniform to go to work tonight. it means that the basic elements of the state have probably melted away and the only organized force is the rebels and they're not terribly well-organized. a lot of their success in the past couple of days, has come because of n.a.t.o. assistance, the air support you mentioned, but also, communications and strategy and now that the military necessity for n.a.t.o. from the rebels' point of view is gone, one question is how much political influence, n.a.t.o. will now have.
>> yeah, you and i spoke by phone briefly as this was starting to happen an hour ago in full force and something you said stuck with me. the big question now is what replaces the regime that is outgoing, if in fact gaddafi should leave power. there's something called a transitional council that might take its place and the big question all along, who are the rebels and will they take over? >> right, precisely at the moment of military victory, over gaddafi's regime, that is at the time for individual rebel leaders, tribal leaders, other figures to make their own bid for power, so, there's very real risk, i think, that the rebel council itself could implode and anarchy descend across the country and one would hope that n.a.t.o. and the united states are exercising influence, but i must say for the past six months, i think there's been an insufficient effort to help
shape the rebel command. we just saw a couple weeks ago the rebel military chief of staff, general eunice fascinated under suspicious circumstances, so if that's the pace of things to come, it could be very, very dangerous indeed. >> i want to remind our viewers what we're looking at here. libyan rebels have taken control of green square, which is in the center of the capital city, tripoli. this just happening about an hour ago, they have moved in, and so this is a situation that is extremely violent and fluid right now. we have first celebration bullets, at least that's how it's been reported by the correspondents with sky news, our sister network, who is there on the ground. but it's a dangerous situation because these people are in fact fighting and gaddafi loyalists there in the square reportedly and anti-government rebels who now have moved in and are said to be taking over this area and ambassador john boulton, ambassador, former ambassador to the united nations, joining us by phone.
there boulton, i want to get your thoughts on where we go next and what this means for america, because we've spent humps of millions of dollars, not to boil this down to money, but it's true, at a time when the country is economically hurting on going to the quote, unquote, not war in libya now, but we've been there for five months in the skies fighting with n.a.t.o. to patrol a no-fly zone and to hit some targets in at that country. and what is in our best interest and where do we go forward? >> well, it's certainly a positive development that gaddafi's gone after saying for nearly six months we wanted him out. it's too bad n.a.t.o. wasn't more effective earlier. and i think there are reasons for that and n.a.t.o. damage as a consequence, but looking ahead, i think it is absolutely in the u.s. interest to make sure that whatever regime replaces gaddafi, is one that believes in a representative government and open he society that's pro
west and does not susceptible to being taken over by radical islamists or terrorists or equally worse case scenario that the country simply descends into the kind of anarchy that we have in somalia today. so, act one, getting rid of gaff if gaddafi, and act two, shaping what oms comes next, equally important. how do we best do that? because this is a country that doesn't any aid that i can speak of, huge amounts from 0 your country, don't ship any oil, to europe and what kind of relationship that they would listen to us, the rebels or whoever is taking over in the interim, why would they listen to us? >> well, if the libyan economy could get back on its feet and pumping and shipping of oil they wouldn't need foreign assistance and there are a lot of american oil companies that have, that have been involved in libya since we extended the
diplomatic relations back in 2004. and i think hopefully, we have done more than just been discussed, probably to talk to the rebel leaders, to work with them, hopefully these are the pro western pro democratic leaders and hopefully, those will be able to hold on to power, but i think this is all very much up in the air at the moment and i think the europeans need to help us, including those european's like germany and italy that were against n.a.t.o.'s involvement in the effort to overthrow gaddafi and this is certainly the moment to show western solidarity here before radicals terrorists get control. >> all right. there is something that's crossing on the associated press wires, ambassador. i do want to get your thoughts about this, but it's breaking right now. the prosecutor of the international criminal court, at the haig in the netherlands, saef gaddafi, the son of muammar gaddafi, taken
into custody fan prosecutor with the international criminal court the son has been indicted along with gaddafi on crimes against humanity charges and that that son has been detained. he was indicted along with his dad earlier this year, but they had not captured him. now, according to this international criminal court, saef gaddafi has been detained by quote, rebel special forces. there's no more details in that, but what does that communicate just in terms of leadership in that country? >> well, if in fact saef has been captured and turned over to the international criminal court, there's no doubt they'll try to prosecute him. but i think it was the president of the indictment by the icc that it was an incentive for gaddafi and his sons and others to hold out as long as they have. and indeed, is one of the reasons i felt as recently as this morning, that gaddafi, at least, muammar gaddafi, would
fight until the very last, because, with this indictment pend and the likelihood of lifetime prison coming from it, they had no incentives to negotiate. if saef has been captured it will be interesting to see if he's allowed to live to get to the haig and trial at the international criminal court and that really goes to the point that we talked about a moment ago, whether the rebels can maintain order, or, for example, it's happened in romania when they were overthrown and collapse of communism. they were given a drum head trial and executed bipartisan who had captured them and he's at risk as his father would be. >> harris: you know, you had told me earlier that this was a rag tag force just a few days ago. what, in your knowledge, has changed in all of this. we saw countries around the world, leaving leading the
charge to say that they accept the rebels is an actual entity there, that they're recognizing them. what changed? >> well, there still is no unified rebel command. they've got regional and tribal commands and part of their difficulty is going to be seeing if they can put that together. i do think that the coordinated assault that has resulted in gaddafi, apparently falling this evening, came from extensive n.a.t.o. assistance. not just aerial bombardment, but strategizing and communications and other assistance as well. he so the rebels have certainly benefitted from that and that is given n.a.t.o. a lot of leverage, with that, the need for the military assistance is gone. the question is how much leverage n.a.t.o. still has, i think, is very much up in the air and that one of the factors that could contribute to unity among the rebels, breaking down again, very, very quickly, if they're not able to achieve some kind of political compromise.
>> harris: and remind everybody what we're watching now is the unfolding in libya, it would seem, of the government there. the way that it's being reported right now, anti-government rebels have moved into the capital city, tripoli there and this would be clearly destructive there and gaddafi forces are there to meet them as anti-rebels say they've surrounded gaddafi forces and that they're in control, but all, but a very small strong hold by gaddafi, a very just a pocket of the city. we are he' looking at live pictures via our sister network sky news. one last subject to cover with you now and of course, ambassador you're going to stand by for us and we'll bring you back later, but ban am flight 103 and the people who were killed on that and then the finding that colonel gaddafi ordered the bombing of that flight, all those years ago, there have got to be some people who are watching this, with a certain amount of maybe vindication for them. >> the location of this, not
lost on anyone within, well, 100 miles of tripoli tonight. . >> harris: and i think we've lost the ambassador by phone, but we will bring him back later. we are able to hear some of the found that's happening in that square, green square in the center of tripoli, as the news is breaking tonight in libya. we're going to take a quick break. we will be right back with our coverage, stay close. yeah, it's new beneful healthy fiesta. gotta love the protein for muscles-- whoo-hoo! and omega-rich nutrition for that shiny coat. ever think healthy could taste so good? [ woman announcing ] new beneful healthy fiesta. for red lobster we can find. male announcer ] hurry into crabfest at red lobster and savor 3 crab entrees under $20 like our crab and seafood bake. or our snow crab and crab butter shrimp. my name's jon forsythe and i sea food differently.
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>> a fox urgent in lib yeah, we're witnessing history. islamic regime and the people formed as rebels and fighting off an organized army of a dictator and taking over the capital city and we are here euphoria is spreading throughout the streets. some live via network sky news and journalists have been telling the stories and witnessing all of this firsthand and when the rebels got to the city a short time ago, we have learned defenders of that dictator simply melted away. >> i'm harris falkner and this is the fox report. it is looking more and more like libyan leader muammar gaddafi's case are in fact numbered. that's what we've been hearing from government leaders in our country and see it playing out on our own television screens around the world and the rebels are in tripoli and you can see them on top of trucks, convoys, firing machine guns
into the the air and many of them, as they were walking into the city, we could see this video was pouring into fox news and they were carrying rocket propelled launchers on their backs, about the length of their backs and rallying and carrying the equipment on their books into the city and the past 24 hours, filled with the heaviest fighting we've seen there in the five months that our pilots have been engaged to be in n.a.t.o. anyway, it isn't clear where gaddafi is now, but it looks like this war that's raged on for several months may soon come, if not to a dramatic end, at least nearing an end. dominique di-natale is on the grou streaming across the border into libya tonight. dominic? >> harris, you may just be able to hear behind he me in the distance, the sound of celebration, the sounds of car horns being honked and being some gunfire in the past few minutes and there are so many
libyans now this tunisia who fled the country as a result of the war, they can be heard in the streets celebrating at the news and we first started hearing the commotion half the news break that say he had been arrested and from that point on wards, continued celebration, ongoing ever since. no doubt, just building on what has been happening on the streets of tripoli, from the pictures we're seeing, obviously the rebels completely overrunning the city and citizens and libyans celebrating and cheering the fact that it at long, long last, gaddafi's regime has come to an end and this by far the most indicative turning point in six months since the uprising began. i think what people now need to see, harris, is gaddafi leaving the country or announcing that he is in fact stepping down and until that moment comes, it's by no means definitively over. the rebels that we met this
morning were saying that they believed it was just 72 hours away, well uknow, 12 hours and look how closely, we seemingly are. so, until that comes, that tipping point and when we see and hear from gaddafi, we know it's true. for the time being people feeling there is reason to celebrate and the rebels now in tripoli making it hard for gaddafi to keep on the path much longer, back to you. >> we want to mention you're down at the border between tunisia and libya and people who have been defecting have been going to. what role is tunisia playing in all of this? >> well, the main reason for so many defectors crossing in the west. rebels have pretty much taken over the east at the start of the uprising, so there was one narrow corridor, along the coast line, all the way to the tunisian border, and that was open to them. and up until yesterday, pro gaddafi forces still
controlled that artery between tripoli and the tunisian border, so, as a result of that, that has been their only way in and well, only way out, i should say because that's been the flow that's been going. and the past he three weeks, we have been three top government officials and longstanding supporters of gaddafi come out and either through, and into tunisia or through tunisia and many people have been expecting if gaddafi does leave, that's going to be his exit point as well, harris. >> yeah, it's interesting, because you know, amid all of the talk and rumors and things that we haven't been able to confirm. all through the day, there has been the discussion about whether gaddafi has actually made his way to where you would be right now, right there on the border crossing over into that country. >> it was a really curious incident in the early hours of friday morning, we merrheard fr one of the rebels today. an and that was visible land
cruisers passed out of southern check point border crossing. in the early hours of friday morning, and it wasn't clear who that was, some of the rebels were saying that in fact, that was gaddafi then and he had already left the country, but i think by now, that would have been confirmed, you know, that that was 48 hours ago, and if he had left, i think more and greater especially passed into another country and somebody of course, could have been the oil minister, because he was the most latest defection, but that was somebody very important that did cross and until it's confirmed who was on that convoy we can only speculate. for the time being he's still missing and he has yet to appear. >> dominique di-natale in the strategic place for us, thank you very much. and well, the president's staff has been briefing him on the latest developments while he's on vacation up at martha's vineyards and our chief correspondent ed henry
is travelling with president obama and ed, what can you tell us? >> it's interesting because the president was travelling at the beginning of the n.a.t.o. mission, you'll remember he was in latin america, as the military conflict began. now, five months later, he's here on vacation and the white house is stressing it's a working vacation because as you noted he has been getting briefings from his national security aide who is here, john brenen on the ground and the president, we've seen little of him today except he he was out on the golf course for some time and he's been in a private reception at the home of brian roberts, the chairman and ceo of comcast and he's not yet made any sort of statement about the situation in libya, we're told by administration officials, that is in large part because they are watching this unfold as we are. the last thing they want to do is interfere or jump the gun, if you will, and get ahead of facts on the ground. the state department we want to note has put out a statement noting that the president and secretary of state, hillary clinton have been getting constant updates on the statement going on,
quote, we continue efforts to continued the rebels to maintain broad outreach across all segments of libyan society and to plan for post gaddafi libya and gaddafi's days are numbered. if gaddafi cared about the welfare of the libyan people he would step down now. this is a statement from victoria newland a u.s. state department spokeswoman. an important point to underscore, that's one of the critical concerns when you talk to the senior obama administration officials, that what will happen next. they obviously, would welcome the news, if and when it happens, and the gaddafi regime falling after 42 years, however, they want to know whether or not the rebels can govern themselves. what would come next? the chaos we're starting to see, is that going to continue for some time? this is a point as you know that ambassador john bolton was making with you on the phone a few moments ago, from a different ideological spectrum than the obama administration, but both sides
sorting out what comes next on the ground, harris. >> harris: it's interesting what you're saying and american people no doubt watching and saying what does this mean for our people, who are involved there, engaged in an n.a.t.o. military corporation and they've been flying, those missions, for five months now. >> right. and you would expect, obviously, that at least in the short-term, it would mean the n.a.t.o. missions winding down at least from a military standpoint and then the next question will be, what will the u.s. and its key n.a.t.o. allies and others do, especially allies in the region there, north africa and the middle east, do to help rebuild libya, to help the rebels form some sort of a government or the elections in the future and we saw this with the arab spring a few months ago, euphoria in the initial moments as the government itself. however, as we see in egypt, months later, they are he' struggling with both economic progress forming the government and et cetera. i think clearly, the administration is watching this closely tonight, with the
rest of us, but they're trying to figure out what is going to be next, harris. and nobody has any clear answers. >> well, it's so interesting, can the rebels govern themselves is the question you raised and not long ago we're asking who are the rebels and ed henry asking tonight travelling with the president, thank you very much. i want to take everybody back to the live action, what's actually happening right now on the ground. 1:41 a.m. in tripoli right now. you're looking via sky news our sister network, let's watch and listen. >> and the war and like our system-- and end crimes in libya. (inaudible) we would like to see them in the courts. >> you talk after state of law, there are reports of looters moving into the hotel in tripoli tonight. >> in the great scheme of things, that might be pretty
small scale, but it's not a good sign, is it? >> you know, it's hard, it's hard, it's very, very, very hard to control the people in this emotion. but through our station libya, we are giving them-- asking them to be quiet. asking them to be very, very for the future and not going to the revenge and don't take the justice in their hands and we're doing every, every possible thing, but after 42 years of dictatorship, people have arrived to carry out their remotion and what we'd like to tell them and to see them to control the emotion and don't, don't be against the law and order. >> have you got control of state television tonight?. [gunshots] >> state television, many shut down completely, one
station in libya, i think, a recorded programs and the are not taking anything live. >> and spokesman for the rebels, thanks very much indeed for your time. and what do you make of what he had to say. in the sense it's very measured-- >> what we've been watching and listening to was very dramatic. that was a spokesperson for the rebels, talking very calmly what could possibly be happening next, talking about the fact of them moving in and taking over, not only the square, but what they figure are strong holds inside the capital city and throughout that country. i want to be joined now by major general bob scales, fox news military analyst and joining us now from washington to get some idea of strategy at this point and what might come next.
and major general bob scales, you're joining us by phone? >> no, i'm with you, harris, how are you. >> harris: i'm good. i can't see you yet, but your opinion and i don't know if you could hear that spokesperson, all along we've been wondering who are the rebellings and how organized will they be and the spokesperson very coherent and clear on the message. >> there appears in warfare a psychological tipping point and it's a test of wills, whether it's baghdad in 2003 object tripoli today. there are points where the insurgent forces take control, the real question, harris, today, is what will happen next? will there be a continued insurgency, will there be a reestablishment of order? only time can tell. but what we can do now, harris, is celebrate with the people of tripoli to recognize the fact that gaddafi is gone, that a new force is in power.
the only real question right now, is whether it will be a force of order or a question of disorder here. >> you know, general, i want to ask the question, why are we celebrating? because we don't know who these people are going to be, this transition council, who the people will be. we do know the devil that's leaving, muammar gaddafi and havoc and death he's wreaked for decades. we know that, but we're not quite sure what's coming, are we? >> that's right, but remember, the people of this poor country have endured a heartless dictator for the last 40 years, he so you deal with this, this period of euphoria, where the people now regain control, and the real question, as you intimated, harris, what will happen next? will the people ultimately gain control or will this all sort of disintegrate into chaos, but i have to say at this moment, as you look at the television screen you have to be happy for the people of this, of this country that the fact that gaddafi is gone, his
sons are in custody and now the people control the streets. this is a real euphoric moment. >> general, talk to he me a little about taking saef gaddafi, the son, basically the public relations space for this regime for the last six months. and gaddafi's son in custody and as far as we know, he hasn't been harmed, he hasn't been killed. what does that tell you about maybe the organization or the focus of the rebels at this point? >> okay, harris, remember, now, said was going to be the intermediary, the sort of halfway point between an awe to beingsy and democracy and that's gone now. he's under custody and the libyan people are now in control and no longer do the libyan people have to look forward to sort of an immediate steps of democracy, they've fallen off the cliff and into the arms of democracy and perhaps the influence of the united states and n.a.t.o. and it's time to step back and for them to look at their
future and just disregard the whole family controlled this country for so long and looked forward to a new dawn and frankly as someone who has seen the fall of saigon and baghdad and fall of tripoli, frankly, this is a very opportunistic moment. >> an interesting context you've brought to the table. one final question as we watch basically history unfolding and another part of the arab world. where do we fit in with your military now? because we have pilots in air i don't know if they're flying missions, but they have to this point. >> in fact the united states has taken a back seat to this whole operation. my sources tell me that the american special operating forces are present in the country and they've done some work with the insurgencies, but ultimately what's good about this, it's not about the american army driving through the streets of baghdad. this is the-- this is the libyan people who suddenly are taking charge of their own capital.
so there's a missing step here which ultimately will play to the side of, in my opinion, to order and democracy, the united states is in the background and the libyan people in charge. the gaddafi family is gone and hopefully, if order can prevail over the next few days we'll see a bright future for this country. >> interesting, if order. we saw this play out in egypt. and this is not just over in a matter of hours, and major general giving us great context from all of this in his experience, and general, thank you very much. continuing coverage. breaking news in libya tonight. context and perspective from the national security experts, on the implications for the united states next. . >> a huge significance of seeing these celebrations, the rebels. what about a black frr with utilitrack? absolutely. oh, great, that's awesome. what about a platinum graphite rogue with touch-screen nav, bluetooth, and...a moonroof? with or without leather? we got 'em both.
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>> the latest from our journalist in libya. rebel forces making major progress, preaching the green square in the center of the capital city. while a son of the dictator muammar gaddafi has been detained. the international criminal court confirming that a short while ago. gaddafi's location at this point uncertain, unknown, but we have a correspondent on the border with tunisia, there's been some talk maybe he might go across that border because we've seen some of his defectors high in his government and the last 72 hours cross over that border as they defect. we're joined by kt mcfarland, a fox news national security analyst and worked across the america's of nixon, ford and reagan and you have a lot of experience waving things fall in that part of the world. and, but this dictator has been there for 42 years, what does this mean? >> well, that means a couple of things, one, he's been a state sponsor of terrorism and
a nuclear weapons program interestingly he gave up. but what it now means is that in libya there's going to be a three act play like any revolution, the first is to topple the dictator. everyone who has toppled him is in agreement and unified in toppling him. starting toow. ow the new guys, can they get their act together. they haven't in 40 years, they have no experience doing this, are they going to fall out amongst themselves are they going to spend time score settling with gaddafi people or turn around and govern and if they can't get their act together then act three happens which is often the worst leader than you had. and this is what happened with iran when the sha was toppled and we ended up. >> and major general bob scales was on the air and you were sitting next to hee when i was talking to him and no doubt heard him talking about special ops on the ground there, america's best. there are a few things we ought to be doing at 7:54 eastern time. >> yeah, we've probably got 48 hours to do a couple of things. we he should be working with the rebels to convince them
don't spend your time score settling. what you need to do is immediately make sure the water gets turned on and do the things that people have to do to govern and the other thing we should do is look around to see where is gaddafi. and has he fled to another country. is he still in libya? if he is, is he trying to rally some of his tribe ab trying to do an insurgency like saddam hussein did. >> why? >> why? because here is the thing. saddam hussein had no place to go. so he had an insurgency internally. gaddafi may think he can leave libya and find safe haven somewhere, algeria is one report. but will you be turned over to the international criminal court for war crimes and potential trial and execution or does he stay and fight for the last drop of blood? >> you know, i asked the question why, because as we're watching unfold right now. clearly they're in charge of their own, what would be-- for lack of a better word. their revolution. why do they need us to hunt down gaddafi. >> we've been part of the
revolution and they have been leading the revolution. when i worked for reagan, reagan understood you couldn't impose a revolution from another country and they own this, that's great. that doesn't mean we can't help guide them here, guide them there. use our logistics to try to find gaddafi. >> it's interesting and i don't want to put you up against the general, that's absolutely not fair, but i did see you shake your your head when general scales said this is a sense of celebration and heard me ask the question, why are we celebrating, we don't know what is left. >> and look at egypt. isn't this wonderful, mubarak, democracy is taking over. six month later in egypt we're at the point where we're going to have elections and muslim brotherhood a known affiliated terrorist organization could win at the polls and, sometimes democracy isn't what you and i think of it, one man, one vote, one time. >> ten seconds left. our interest in libya, we don't have any vital interest, we don't buy oil from them we have an interest in the whole region, which is stability and
then, it's radical islamists don't take in that region and use it as a toe hold to them. does it look stable right now? and that's the problem. and just a few hours from now, we're watching that situation. too. kt mcfarland, taking a look at all the that this will make developments on. and president obama said he would make a statement as soon as he knows what's going on. r is yes. when we design any well, the groundwater's protected by multiple layers of steel and cement. most wells are over a mile and a half deep so there's a tremendous amount of protective rock between the fracking operation and the groundwater. natural gas is critical to our future. at exxonmobil we recognize the challenges and how important it is to do this right. with less chronic low back pain. imagine living your life with less chronic osteoarthritis pain.
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